Bit of electronics for a change, circuits, chips! yummy jummy!...

[Jan Panteltje]

Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits
https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages
What\'s Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and charging time issues that have created barriers with consumers and slowed the rollout of EVs.
Here\'s how they work.

Circuits!! Chips!!!
been so long....

 

[Ricky]

On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 4:16:54 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:

Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits
https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages
What\'s Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and charging time issues that have created barriers with consumers and slowed the rollout of EVs.
Here\'s how they work.

Circuits!! Chips!!!
been so long....

Yeah, typical magazine type article. 800V batteries require 800V chargers.

There is a lot of work on making large improvements in the batteries themselves to allow faster charging times. That will be much more significant than the marginal improvements from an 800V system.

Yes, I\'m looking forward to the improvements in charging times as my car charges from a 120V outlet, and that is perfectly ok.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[TTman]

On 31/08/2022 09:12, Jan Panteltje wrote:

Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits
https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages
What\'s Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and charging time issues that have created barriers with consumers and slowed the rollout of EVs.
Here\'s how they work.

Circuits!! Chips!!!
been so long....

800V @300A for the Porche.. And the cable thickness is.....

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

 

[amdx]

On 8/31/2022 6:00 AM, TTman wrote:

On 31/08/2022 09:12, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits
https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages
    What\'s Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
    Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve
range and charging time issues that have created barriers with
consumers and slowed the rollout of EVs.
    Here\'s how they work.

Circuits!! Chips!!!
been so long....

800V @300A for the Porche.. And the cable thickness is.....

This part is contradictory,\"As the motor operating voltage increases for
a given input power, it reduces the input RMS current and, therefore,
the stator winding copper losses. Losses are typically reduced by a
factor of 4 using an 800- versus a 400-V supply. This offers the
opportunity to reduce the copper winding wire diameter,\"
  So, which are they going to do, reduce copper losses or reduce the
copper winding wire diameter? Yea, they can probably do a compromise
between the two.
                                   Mikek

 

[Jeroen Belleman]

On 2022-08-31 14:07, amdx wrote:

On 8/31/2022 6:00 AM, TTman wrote:
On 31/08/2022 09:12, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits
https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages


What\'s Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve
range and charging time issues that have created barriers with
consumers and slowed the rollout of EVs. Here\'s how they work.

Circuits!! Chips!!! been so long....

800V @300A for the Porche.. And the cable thickness is.....



This part is contradictory,\"As the motor operating voltage increases
for a given input power, it reduces the input RMS current and,
therefore, the stator winding copper losses. Losses are typically
reduced by a factor of 4 using an 800- versus a 400-V supply. This
offers the opportunity to reduce the copper winding wire diameter,\"
So, which are they going to do, reduce copper losses or reduce the
copper winding wire diameter? Yea, they can probably do a compromise
between the two. Mikek

IIRC, to first order, for a given copper volume, the working voltage
of a motor does not affect its power or efficiency. At low voltages,
it will have few turns of thick wire, and at high voltages, many turns
of thin wire. The devil is in the details though.

Jeroen Belleman

 

[Phil Hobbs]

Jeroen Belleman wrote:

On 2022-08-31 14:07, amdx wrote:
On 8/31/2022 6:00 AM, TTman wrote:
On 31/08/2022 09:12, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits
https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages



What\'s Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve
range and charging time issues that have created barriers with
consumers and slowed the rollout of EVs. Here\'s how they work.

Circuits!! Chips!!! been so long....

800V @300A for the Porche.. And the cable thickness is.....



This part is contradictory,\"As the motor operating voltage increases
for a given input power, it reduces the input RMS current and,
therefore, the stator winding copper losses. Losses are typically
reduced by a factor of 4 using an 800- versus a 400-V supply. This
offers the opportunity to reduce the copper winding wire diameter,\"
So, which are they going to do, reduce copper losses or reduce the
copper winding wire diameter? Yea, they can probably do a compromise
between the two. Mikek

IIRC, to first order, for a given copper volume, the working voltage
of a motor does not affect its power or efficiency. At low voltages,
it will have few turns of thick wire, and at high voltages, many turns
of thin wire. The devil is in the details though.

Jeroen Belleman

Yup. There are skin effect things at high speed and thick copper, and
insulation things at high voltage.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Ed Lee]

On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 3:41:19 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:

On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 4:16:54 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits
https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages
What\'s Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and charging time issues that have created barriers with consumers and slowed the rollout of EVs.
Here\'s how they work.

Circuits!! Chips!!!
been so long....
Yeah, typical magazine type article. 800V batteries require 800V chargers.

There is a lot of work on making large improvements in the batteries themselves to allow faster charging times. That will be much more significant than the marginal improvements from an 800V system.

Yes, I\'m looking forward to the improvements in charging times as my car charges from a 120V outlet, and that is perfectly ok.

My Leaf will have two (or may be three) charging plugs, running at the same time.

 

[rbowman]

On 08/31/2022 05:00 AM, TTman wrote:

On 31/08/2022 09:12, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits

https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages

What\'s Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve
range and charging time issues that have created barriers with
consumers and slowed the rollout of EVs.
Here\'s how they work.

Circuits!! Chips!!!
been so long....

800V @300A for the Porche.. And the cable thickness is.....

Big... For a short run #1 or 1/0 welding cable should do it. I briefly
worked for the Penn Central, a railroad company rapidly going bankrupt.
The diesel electric locomotives had DC traction motors. iirc they were
700A at 500VDC.

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Wed, 31 Aug 2022 03:41:13 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky
<gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
<6db303e5-2c40-4559-ab4d-6911e4d13159n@googlegroups.com>:

On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 4:16:54 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits

https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages
What\'s Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and charging time issues that have created barriers with
consumers and slowed the rollout of EVs.
Here\'s how they work.

Circuits!! Chips!!!
been so long....

Yeah, typical magazine type article. 800V batteries require 800V chargers.

There is a lot of work on making large improvements in the batteries themselves to allow faster charging times. That will be
much more significant than the marginal improvements from an 800V system.

You missed the advantage that power losses go down quadratic with voltage going up?
Important for the motors.



>Yes, I\'m looking forward to the improvements in charging times as my car charges from a 120V outlet, and that is perfectly ok.

Well, I use the bike here to do shopping now, runs on some pizza and chocolate etc..
Super market is just half an hour biking away.
Charging time? Just had my pizza in < 30 minutes.

Maybe when Musk survives twittering then Tesla will go to 800 V too?
Or are they there already?

 

[server]

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:12:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits
https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages
What\'s Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and charging time issues that have created barriers with consumers and slowed the rollout of EVs.
Here\'s how they work.

Circuits!! Chips!!!
been so long....

That\'s an ad, not an article, and it\'s full of annoying popups and 33
cookies.

Motor losses reduced by a factor of 4 at 800 volts, and using smaller
motors at 800 volts, is absurd. And they suggest that a window winder
motor will run at 800 volts.

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:17:57 -0700) it happened
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
<ueuugh5i6e6qrkktv0ar0341oakeflo54p@4ax.com>:

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:12:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits

https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages
What\'s Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and charging time issues that have created barriers with
consumers and slowed the rollout of EVs.
Here\'s how they work.

Circuits!! Chips!!!
been so long....

That\'s an ad, not an article, and it\'s full of annoying popups and 33
cookies.
Did not see a single popup in Chromium on my Linux on a Pi4 8 GB.

Motor losses reduced by a factor of 4 at 800 volts, and using smaller
motors at 800 volts, is absurd.

Well, its maaz

And they suggest that a window winder
motor will run at 800 volts.

When you get a bit more experienced with tronix you will encounter buck converters.

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 16:47:17 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:17:57 -0700) it happened
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
ueuugh5i6e6qrkktv0ar0341oakeflo54p@4ax.com>:

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:12:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits

https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages
What\'s Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and charging time issues that have created barriers with
consumers and slowed the rollout of EVs.
Here\'s how they work.

Circuits!! Chips!!!
been so long....

That\'s an ad, not an article, and it\'s full of annoying popups and 33
cookies.
Did not see a single popup in Chromium on my Linux on a Pi4 8 GB.

Motor losses reduced by a factor of 4 at 800 volts, and using smaller
motors at 800 volts, is absurd.

Well, its maaz


And they suggest that a window winder
motor will run at 800 volts.

When you get a bit more experienced with tronix you will encounter buck converters.

The claim is that motors are more efficient, less copper loss, run at
800 volts. Nonsense.

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:12:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits
https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages
What\'s Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and charging time issues that have created barriers with consumers and slowed the rollout of EVs.
Here\'s how they work.

Circuits!! Chips!!!
been so long....

Fun:

https://www.mystateline.com/news/national/california-asks-residents-not-to-charge-electric-vehicles-days-after-announcing-gas-car-ban/

 

[Ed Lee]

On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 10:51:03 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:12:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits
https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages
What\'s Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and charging time issues that have created barriers with consumers and slowed the rollout of EVs.
Here\'s how they work.

Circuits!! Chips!!!
been so long....
Fun:

https://www.mystateline.com/news/national/california-asks-residents-not-to-charge-electric-vehicles-days-after-announcing-gas-car-ban/

\"the American Public Power Association said, and limit energy usage during 4 p.m. and p.m.\"

Fine. I only charge in a.m.

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Wed, 31 Aug 2022 10:21:52 -0700) it happened John Larkin
<jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
<v26vghhlot2rjrgbisonl6it4olpgubjv6@4ax.com>:

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 16:47:17 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:17:57 -0700) it happened
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
ueuugh5i6e6qrkktv0ar0341oakeflo54p@4ax.com>:

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:12:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits


https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages
What\'s Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and charging time issues that have created barriers
with
consumers and slowed the rollout of EVs.
Here\'s how they work.

Circuits!! Chips!!!
been so long....

That\'s an ad, not an article, and it\'s full of annoying popups and 33
cookies.
Did not see a single popup in Chromium on my Linux on a Pi4 8 GB.

Motor losses reduced by a factor of 4 at 800 volts, and using smaller
motors at 800 volts, is absurd.

Well, its maaz


And they suggest that a window winder
motor will run at 800 volts.

When you get a bit more experienced with tronix you will encounter buck converters.

The claim is that motors are more efficient, less copper loss, run at
800 volts. Nonsense.

Say you, big car companies seem to think different.. so do I.
As to window winder motors.. If I was to design such a car
why not get stuff running from just a few of those (hundreds) cells?
Those small motors that only run occasionaly have no signicifant impact on cell balances.
So use a 48 V motor on 12 cells or whwtever, you can spread differrnt things
over the whole battery pack.. each with a fuse.

Learn to think outside the box. Stop moaning.
Actualy the ratio tronix versus blah blah on that sit3 is pretty good compared to Usenet
And yes, advertizing, most datasheets are advertizing.
You could also learn something, did you scroll down to that audio processor?
I mean if I was stuck in this group ....

 

[John Miles, KE5FX]

On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 8:18:04 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

Motor losses reduced by a factor of 4 at 800 volts, and using smaller
motors at 800 volts, is absurd. And they suggest that a window winder
motor will run at 800 volts.

The service bay at the Porsche dealership up here has a huge metal
roll-up door, maybe 10x the area of a typical household 2-car garage
door. It opens in roughly one second.

Germans gonna German, what\'re you gonna do...

-- john, KE5FX

 

[Ricky]

On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 10:25:37 AM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:

On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 3:41:19 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 4:16:54 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits
https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages
What\'s Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and charging time issues that have created barriers with consumers and slowed the rollout of EVs.
Here\'s how they work.

Circuits!! Chips!!!
been so long....
Yeah, typical magazine type article. 800V batteries require 800V chargers.

There is a lot of work on making large improvements in the batteries themselves to allow faster charging times. That will be much more significant than the marginal improvements from an 800V system.

Yes, I\'m looking forward to the improvements in charging times as my car charges from a 120V outlet, and that is perfectly ok.
My Leaf will have two (or may be three) charging plugs, running at the same time.

The operative word there is \"will\". Let us know when you complete that.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 10:45:25 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:

On a sunny day (Wed, 31 Aug 2022 03:41:13 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky
gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
6db303e5-2c40-4559...@googlegroups.com>:
On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 4:16:54 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits

https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages
What\'s Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and charging time issues that have created barriers with
consumers and slowed the rollout of EVs.
Here\'s how they work.

Circuits!! Chips!!!
been so long....

Yeah, typical magazine type article. 800V batteries require 800V chargers.

There is a lot of work on making large improvements in the batteries themselves to allow faster charging times. That will be
much more significant than the marginal improvements from an 800V system..
You missed the advantage that power losses go down quadratic with voltage going up?
Important for the motors.

Obviously not. You missed the bit about diminishing returns. Otherwise, why stop at 800V? Why not 1,600V, or 3,200V? The motors are already very efficient. Not much room for improvement there. Battery improvements will be much more significant in providing longer range.

If you want to improve efficiency of BEVs, simply keep your foot out of the accelerator pedal. I2R loss are quadratic too.

Yes, I\'m looking forward to the improvements in charging times as my car charges from a 120V outlet, and that is perfectly ok.
Well, I use the bike here to do shopping now, runs on some pizza and chocolate etc..
Super market is just half an hour biking away.
Charging time? Just had my pizza in < 30 minutes.

Yeah, I expect in the US, there are maybe 1 in 10,000 who use a bicycle for grocery shopping. So that will never be a significant impact, regardless of the benefits.

Maybe when Musk survives twittering then Tesla will go to 800 V too?
Or are they there already?

No, Tesla won\'t be going to 800V any time soon. Look at the cars they make which are 400V. I\'m not a big Tesla fan, but I have to admit they are at the head of the pack when it comes to the tech. We\'ll see how things go in the future. Anything can change.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 11:18:04 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:12:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits
https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages
What\'s Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and charging time issues that have created barriers with consumers and slowed the rollout of EVs.
Here\'s how they work.

Circuits!! Chips!!!
been so long....
That\'s an ad, not an article, and it\'s full of annoying popups and 33
cookies.

Motor losses reduced by a factor of 4 at 800 volts, and using smaller
motors at 800 volts, is absurd. And they suggest that a window winder
motor will run at 800 volts.

So, when running at 15 kW, how much power is being wasted by my 400V motor? What would be the improvement in consumption and range by a switch to 800V?

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 2:09:29 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:

On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 10:51:03 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:12:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits
https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages
What\'s Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and charging time issues that have created barriers with consumers and slowed the rollout of EVs.
Here\'s how they work.

Circuits!! Chips!!!
been so long....
Fun:

https://www.mystateline.com/news/national/california-asks-residents-not-to-charge-electric-vehicles-days-after-announcing-gas-car-ban/
\"the American Public Power Association said, and limit energy usage during 4 p.m. and p.m.\"

Fine. I only charge in a.m.

I don\'t know why people are getting wigged out by BEVs. Every BEV I am aware of has a timer to allow charging only at all peak times. Many people have ToU billing, which means they will charge at night or during other times of excess capacity. Some BEV owners are not aware of peak power issues, but then many people have no timing control on their dishwasher or water heater, which will use more power than charging a BEV, and right at peak time!

While only a few have a BEV, even in California, pretty much everyone has a hot water heater. I bet they could benefit from better efficiency from those. Maybe they need to run off 480VAC?

--

Rick C.

+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209