Bit of electronics for a change, circuits, chips! yummy jummy!...

On Saturday, September 3, 2022 at 6:47:18 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Thursday, 1 September 2022 at 04:24:48 UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
...
While only a few have a BEV, even in California, pretty much everyone has a hot water heater. I bet they could benefit from better efficiency from those. Maybe they need to run off 480VAC?
...

A large proportion of California homes use gas for water heating. When electric power is used 240V is generally used. 480V wouldn\'t give any measurable improvement assuming the usual rules for sizing the wiring.

As of 2023 it will be a requirement to use a heat-pump water heater. They can give about a three times improvement in efficiency.
Click to expand...

If a hot water heat pump is pulling heat from a heated space, don\'t you have to pay to reheat that space? Draw hot water, which often goes down the drain, and the furnace has to come on to warm up the house. That\'s an improvement?

--

Rick C.

---- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
---- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
On Thursday, 1 September 2022 at 06:29:02 UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
....
Did not see a single popup in Chromium on my Linux on a Pi4 8 GB.

Motor losses reduced by a factor of 4 at 800 volts, and using smaller
Click to expand...

No it doesn\'t.

There is nothing intrinsically better running the motor at 800v vs 400V.

If the volume of copper in the windings is the same for the two voltages the copper losses are identical.

You can imagine having the 800v winding split into 2 halves.

If you run them in series it takes 800V with a certain current density and resistive loss.

If the two halves are put in parallel it would take half the voltage but twice the current. The losses are identical.

The improvements can be in the external circuitry and wiring.

If the active devices can be made with improved figure of merit in breakdown voltage vs on-resistance there is an advantage for higher voltage. Large band-gap devices such as Silicon carbide have an advantage here.

Wiring can get improvements at higher voltage as insulation tends to be lighter, cheaper and smaller than copper so going to a higher voltage can help..

With modern EVs the active devices IIGBT typically) in the motor driver were first available with breakdown voltages of the order of 1000V and so were only good for system voltage about half of that - 400V tended to be used. With SIC that has increased so 800V (that can go up to ~950V when fully charged) are practical.

There is a limit to the usefulness of increasing the system voltage as some switching losses increase with voltage.

motors at 800 volts, is absurd.
Click to expand...

For small motors such as window winders, yes
....
A car is only a small box, and by using the cells directly you do not get any voltage converter efficiency losses.
Wiring is a one time issue.
Click to expand...

Not really as weight and space are important and can influence efficiency throughout the cars life.

kw
 
On Thursday, 1 September 2022 at 21:52:49 UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
....
take headlights
Normal car headlights do not run on a stabilized power supply.
Click to expand...

Modern car headlights tend to be LED and so do run on a regulated supply as well as dramatically reducing power consumption.

kw
 
On Saturday, 3 September 2022 at 16:08:38 UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
....
As of 2023 it will be a requirement to use a heat-pump water heater. They can give about a three times improvement in efficiency.
If a hot water heat pump is pulling heat from a heated space, don\'t you have to pay to reheat that space? Draw hot water, which often goes down the drain, and the furnace has to come on to warm up the house. That\'s an improvement?
Click to expand...

The water heaters in California are typically in an unheated space so it is not an problem, but that would be an issue if it wasn\'t.

A friend remodeled his house and put in a heat-pump water heater and he did have problems with the basement getting too cold. It was solved by improving the ventilation.

kw
 
On a sunny day (Sat, 3 Sep 2022 16:15:27 -0700 (PDT)) it happened
\"ke...@kjwdesigns.com\" <keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote in
<c603e714-ac6a-4baf-b851-3e837a67ef41n@googlegroups.com>:

On Thursday, 1 September 2022 at 06:29:02 UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
...
Did not see a single popup in Chromium on my Linux on a Pi4 8 GB.

Motor losses reduced by a factor of 4 at 800 volts, and using smaller

No
it doesn\'t.

There is nothing intrinsically better running the motor at 800v vs 400V.

If the volume of copper in the windings is the same for the two voltages the
copper losses are identical.

You can imagine having the 800v winding split into 2 halves.

If you run them in series it takes 800V with a certain current density and resistive
loss.

If the two halves are put in parallel it would take half the voltage but twice
the current. The losses are identical.

The improvements can be in the external circuitry and wiring.

If the active devices can be made with improved figure of merit in breakdown
voltage vs on-resistance there is an advantage for higher voltage. Large band-gap
devices such as Silicon carbide have an advantage here.

Wiring can get improvements at higher voltage as insulation tends to be lighter,
cheaper and smaller than copper so going to a higher voltage can help.

With
modern EVs the active devices IIGBT typically) in the motor driver were
first available with breakdown voltages of the order of 1000V and so were
only good for system voltage about half of that - 400V tended to be used. With
SIC that has increased so 800V (that can go up to ~950V when fully charged)
are practical.

There is a limit to the usefulness of increasing the system voltage as some
switching losses increase with voltage.


motors at 800 volts, is absurd.

For small motors such as window winders, yes
...
A car is only a small box, and by using the cells directly you do not get
any voltage converter efficiency losses.
Wiring is a one time issue.

Not really as weight and space are important and can influence efficiency throughout
the cars life.

kw
Click to expand...

The question now is when we get motors with high temperature super-conducting windings
and zero volts accoss the windings.
Very cold weather starts would be better :)
Zero volt batteries needed!
Only a small normal battery needed for a bit of cooling....
fishsicks
 
On Sat, 3 Sep 2022 16:15:27 -0700 (PDT), \"ke...@kjwdesigns.com\"
<keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

On Thursday, 1 September 2022 at 06:29:02 UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
...
Did not see a single popup in Chromium on my Linux on a Pi4 8 GB.

Motor losses reduced by a factor of 4 at 800 volts, and using smaller

No it doesn\'t.

There is nothing intrinsically better running the motor at 800v vs 400V.

If the volume of copper in the windings is the same for the two voltages the copper losses are identical.

You can imagine having the 800v winding split into 2 halves.

If you run them in series it takes 800V with a certain current density and resistive loss.

If the two halves are put in parallel it would take half the voltage but twice the current. The losses are identical.

The improvements can be in the external circuitry and wiring.

If the active devices can be made with improved figure of merit in breakdown voltage vs on-resistance there is an advantage for higher voltage. Large band-gap devices such as Silicon carbide have an advantage here.

Wiring can get improvements at higher voltage as insulation tends to be lighter, cheaper and smaller than copper so going to a higher voltage can help.

With modern EVs the active devices IIGBT typically) in the motor driver were first available with breakdown voltages of the order of 1000V and so were only good for system voltage about half of that - 400V tended to be used. With SIC that has increased so 800V (that can go up to ~950V when fully charged) are practical.

There is a limit to the usefulness of increasing the system voltage as some switching losses increase with voltage.


motors at 800 volts, is absurd.

For small motors such as window winders, yes
...
A car is only a small box, and by using the cells directly you do not get any voltage converter efficiency losses.
Wiring is a one time issue.

Not really as weight and space are important and can influence efficiency throughout the cars life.

kw
Click to expand...

High voltage needs thick insulation on the wire, and skinny wire
windings lose window area to insulation more than fat wires. And
insulation doesn\'t conduct heat as well as copper. Triple whammy.
 
Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 1:24:07 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Wed, 31 Aug 2022 10:21:52 -0700) it happened John Larkin
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
v26vghhlot2rjrgbi...@4ax.com>:
On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 16:47:17 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:17:57 -0700) it happened
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
ueuugh5i6e6qrkktv...@4ax.com>:

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:12:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits


https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages
What\'s Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and charging time issues that have created barriers
with
consumers and slowed the rollout of EVs.
Here\'s how they work.

Circuits!! Chips!!!
been so long....

That\'s an ad, not an article, and it\'s full of annoying popups and 33
cookies.
Did not see a single popup in Chromium on my Linux on a Pi4 8 GB.

Motor losses reduced by a factor of 4 at 800 volts, and using smaller
motors at 800 volts, is absurd.

Well, its maaz


And they suggest that a window winder
motor will run at 800 volts.

When you get a bit more experienced with tronix you will encounter buck converters.

The claim is that motors are more efficient, less copper loss, run at
800 volts. Nonsense.
Say you, big car companies seem to think different.. so do I.
As to window winder motors.. If I was to design such a car
why not get stuff running from just a few of those (hundreds) cells?
Those small motors that only run occasionaly have no signicifant impact on cell balances.

You don\'t know that. The real point is, it would create a consistent imbalance in the cell usage as well as greatly complicate the wiring in the car, running power from two different sources. The main battery runs the motor and a converter to provide power to keep the 12V system working. Then the entire rest of the car runs off that.


So use a 48 V motor on 12 cells or whwtever, you can spread differrnt things
over the whole battery pack.. each with a fuse.

Years ago, there was a big push to up the standard voltage on cars to 48
or 56 volts (don\'t recall the exact number). It never happened.
Click to expand...

It was something really odd like 42 volts from three 12 volt batteries.
Real solid math behind all of it, no matter sort of weird floating charge
fantasy math they were using.

It\'s really not even clear what the goal was. 24 volts would have been
easy enough to implement. without some really goofy battery setups.
 
On Thursday, September 8, 2022 at 7:42:12 PM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
On Friday, 2 September 2022 at 05:46:19 UTC+1, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Thu, 1 Sep 2022 16:14:11 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky
gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
da72c08f-1d06-46e1...@googlegroups.com>:
On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:28:12 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Thu, 1 Sep 2022 04:24:43 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky

gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
e0350540-99d8-4ebc...@googlegroups.com>:
On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 2:09:29 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 10:51:03 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:

Inductive chargers that you just park above? May melt things too at high power.

way too lossy
Click to expand...

I believe this has been discussed here before. It\'s not lossy much at all. In fact, it has lower losses than attaching through a cable and connector.


There is still work on hydrogen cars gong on, but Hindenburg comes to mind.

If there\'s one fuel idea for cars & homes that\'s truly insane, it\'s hydrogen.
Click to expand...

Yes, it\'s so much worse than having natural gas or propane in your home or even gasoline, the stuff that raises your insurance rates by simply having a garage to put it in, even if you don\'t use it!


> What the greens refuse to admit is that fossils are really the only sensible option for most drivers.

Yes, not many people will admit something that\'s not true, unless they are being tortured.

What is wrong with you exactly?

--

Rick C.

+--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
On a sunny day (Thu, 8 Sep 2022 21:33:32 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky
<gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
<b06b021c-d686-49f9-b96f-8700322251dbn@googlegroups.com>:

On Thursday, September 8, 2022 at 7:42:12 PM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
On Friday, 2 September 2022 at 05:46:19 UTC+1, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Thu, 1 Sep 2022 16:14:11 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky
gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
da72c08f-1d06-46e1...@googlegroups.com>:
On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:28:12 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Thu, 1 Sep 2022 04:24:43 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky

gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
e0350540-99d8-4ebc...@googlegroups.com>:
On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 2:09:29 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 10:51:03 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:

Inductive chargers that you just park above? May melt things too at high power.

way too lossy

I believe this has been discussed here before. It\'s not lossy much at all. In fact, it has lower losses than attaching through
a cable and connector.


There is still work on hydrogen cars gong on, but Hindenburg comes to mind.

If there\'s one fuel idea for cars & homes that\'s truly insane, it\'s hydrogen.

Yes, it\'s so much worse than having natural gas or propane in your home or even gasoline, the stuff that raises your insurance
rates by simply having a garage to put it in, even if you don\'t use it!


What the greens refuse to admit is that fossils are really the only sensible option for most drivers.

Yes, not many people will admit something that\'s not true, unless they are being tortured.

What is wrong with you exactly?
Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with him,
what\'s wrong is the \"\'all electric\' and let\'s destroy all other means\" jive
We see coal plants closing, perhaps oil refineries closing, nuclear plants being shutdown...
All out of fear (mongering by greenish looking idiots),
And AS SOON AS THEY GET ANY COLD FEET THEY RE-OPEN THOSE NUCLEAR AND COAL PLANTS as we now see in Germany [1]
So what we need is DIVERSITY so emergency services can works after the solar storm takes out all \'lectric wiring
and we need to keep hand on experience with all those technologies so we can actually bring those online in a flash.
Big comet, volcanos, flooding, wars, probability 100% in the coming years.

[1] Here I did read a warning from a nuclear power plant company that those plants are not designed to just go on
and off randomly... So ...

SO COOL IT A BIT WITH YOUR \'TRICKETY DRIVE

I was even considering buying a gasoline generator to have \'trickety here if things keep going this way
as petrol is getting cheaper again..
400 dollars buys you a very good one that can power washer etc..

And you can put that generator in the back of your \'lectric thing if needed.
 
On Friday, September 9, 2022 at 2:40:23 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Thu, 8 Sep 2022 21:33:32 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky
gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
b06b021c-d686-49f9...@googlegroups.com>:
On Thursday, September 8, 2022 at 7:42:12 PM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
On Friday, 2 September 2022 at 05:46:19 UTC+1, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Thu, 1 Sep 2022 16:14:11 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky
gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
da72c08f-1d06-46e1...@googlegroups.com>:
On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:28:12 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Thu, 1 Sep 2022 04:24:43 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky

gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
e0350540-99d8-4ebc...@googlegroups.com>:
On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 2:09:29 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 10:51:03 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:

Inductive chargers that you just park above? May melt things too at high power.

way too lossy

I believe this has been discussed here before. It\'s not lossy much at all. In fact, it has lower losses than attaching through
a cable and connector.


There is still work on hydrogen cars gong on, but Hindenburg comes to mind.

If there\'s one fuel idea for cars & homes that\'s truly insane, it\'s hydrogen.

Yes, it\'s so much worse than having natural gas or propane in your home or even gasoline, the stuff that raises your insurance
rates by simply having a garage to put it in, even if you don\'t use it!


What the greens refuse to admit is that fossils are really the only sensible option for most drivers.

Yes, not many people will admit something that\'s not true, unless they are being tortured.

What is wrong with you exactly?
Nothing wrong with him,
what\'s wrong is the \"\'all electric\' and let\'s destroy all other means\" jive
We see coal plants closing, perhaps oil refineries closing, nuclear plants being shutdown...
All out of fear (mongering by greenish looking idiots),
And AS SOON AS THEY GET ANY COLD FEET THEY RE-OPEN THOSE NUCLEAR AND COAL PLANTS as we now see in Germany [1]
So what we need is DIVERSITY so emergency services can works after the solar storm takes out all \'lectric wiring
and we need to keep hand on experience with all those technologies so we can actually bring those online in a flash.
Big comet, volcanos, flooding, wars, probability 100% in the coming years..

[1] Here I did read a warning from a nuclear power plant company that those plants are not designed to just go on
and off randomly... So ...

SO COOL IT A BIT WITH YOUR \'TRICKETY DRIVE

I was even considering buying a gasoline generator to have \'trickety here if things keep going this way
as petrol is getting cheaper again..
400 dollars buys you a very good one that can power washer etc..

And you can put that generator in the back of your \'lectric thing if needed.
Click to expand...

You are a strange bird. You babble a lot about \"fear\" and tell people what to do. But you can\'t discuss any of the facts.

What little to do mention, you distort. Germany is looking for energy as a result of the war in eastern Europe. Perhaps you\'ve heard of it.

Not sure why I respond to you. You won\'t discuss the facts rationally. You much prefer to put spin on everything and let it fly away.

Bottom line is, BEVs are being made in exponentially increasing numbers. Every car they can make is bought up with a months long wait list. In 10 years, nearly all cars sold will be BEV, not by mandate, but by choice, as people understand how well BEVs work for personal transportation.

There\'s a number of loud mouths around who denounce BEVs based on where they were yesterday without seeing where they are today and will be tomorrow. But these people can be safely ignored.

In 10 years there won\'t be much in the way of ICE made. In 20 years, there won\'t be much in the way of ICE driven. Gas stations will largely be a thing of the past. If you have an ICE, you will need to fill up at airports and the prices will be sky high (pun intended).

These are facts. It\'s not like there\'s any real reason for BEVs to not become popular. The \"bumps\" in the road will be worked out. By that I mean the ability to charge at home and at work. People aren\'t going to buy an ICE just to avoid the slightly longer fueling time on highway trips, when they can save $1,000+ a year in operation costs.

--

Rick C.

+-+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
On Friday, September 9, 2022 at 4:40:23 PM UTC+10, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Thu, 8 Sep 2022 21:33:32 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky
gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
b06b021c-d686-49f9...@googlegroups.com>:
On Thursday, September 8, 2022 at 7:42:12 PM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
On Friday, 2 September 2022 at 05:46:19 UTC+1, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Thu, 1 Sep 2022 16:14:11 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky
gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
da72c08f-1d06-46e1...@googlegroups.com>:
On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:28:12 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Thu, 1 Sep 2022 04:24:43 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky

gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
e0350540-99d8-4ebc...@googlegroups.com>:
On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 2:09:29 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 10:51:03 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:

Inductive chargers that you just park above? May melt things too at high power.

way too lossy

I believe this has been discussed here before. It\'s not lossy much at all. In fact, it has lower losses than attaching through
a cable and connector.

There is still work on hydrogen cars gong on, but Hindenburg comes to mind.

If there\'s one fuel idea for cars & homes that\'s truly insane, it\'s hydrogen.

Yes, it\'s so much worse than having natural gas or propane in your home or even gasoline, the stuff that raises your insurance
rates by simply having a garage to put it in, even if you don\'t use it!

What the greens refuse to admit is that fossils are really the only sensible option for most drivers.

Yes, not many people will admit something that\'s not true, unless they are being tortured.

What is wrong with you exactly?

Nothing wrong with him,
what\'s wrong is the \"\'all electric\' and let\'s destroy all other means\" jive
We see coal plants closing, perhaps oil refineries closing, nuclear plants being shutdown...
All out of fear (mongering by greenish looking idiots),
Click to expand...

Actually, because all three options end up offering you more expensive energy than solar cells and wind turbines. You do have to budget for some grid storage if you want to use them to supply all your energy, but even throwing the cost of grid storage and the 15% loss of energy involved in sticking the energy into a battery - you only get back about 85% of what you put in - it is still a decidedly cheaper option

> And AS SOON AS THEY GET ANY COLD FEET THEY RE-OPEN THOSE NUCLEAR AND COAL PLANTS as we now see in Germany [1] .

The Russian invasion of the Ukraine, and the consequent shutting off of Russian natural gas shipments is the problem here. Shutting them off is still the cheapest option, but until you\'ve installed all the solar cells and wind turbines that you are going to need, you\'ve got to rely on the old stuff.

So what we need is DIVERSITY so emergency services can works after the solar storm takes out all \'lectric wiring
and we need to keep hand on experience with all those technologies so we can actually bring those online in a flash.
Big comet, volcanos, flooding, wars, probability 100% in the coming years..
Click to expand...

But solar cells and wind turbines are much more dispersed than coal and nuclear plants. If you\'d got solar cells on your roof and a Tesla power wall inside your house, you can get by without any grid at all.

[1] Here I did read a warning from a nuclear power plant company that those plants are not designed to just go on
and off randomly... So ...

SO COOL IT A BIT WITH YOUR \'TRICKETY DRIVE
Click to expand...

Jan needs to cool it with his enthusiasm for antiquated power sources. He may have grown up with them, but they are now an expensive extravagance.

I was even considering buying a gasoline generator to have \'trickety here if things keep going this way
as petrol is getting cheaper again..
Click to expand...

It\'s not going to keep on getting cheaper - quite the reverse.

400 dollars buys you a very good one that can power washer etc..

And you can put that generator in the back of your \'lectric thing if needed.
Click to expand...

And if you\'ve got the money to buy the gasoline, and there\'s still somebody in reach who can sell it to you.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
On a sunny day (Fri, 9 Sep 2022 00:59:48 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Anthony
William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in
<14d0f04e-b79d-44aa-b3e6-b3c6d83ed7ddn@googlegroups.com>:

On Friday, September 9, 2022 at 4:40:23 PM UTC+10, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Thu, 8 Sep 2022 21:33:32 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky

gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
b06b021c-d686-49f9...@googlegroups.com>:
On Thursday, September 8, 2022 at 7:42:12 PM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
On Friday, 2 September 2022 at 05:46:19 UTC+1, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Thu, 1 Sep 2022 16:14:11 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky

gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
da72c08f-1d06-46e1...@googlegroups.com>:
On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:28:12 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 1 Sep 2022 04:24:43 -0700 (PDT)) it happened
Ricky

gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
e0350540-99d8-4ebc...@googlegroups.com>:
On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 2:09:29 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:

On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 10:51:03 AM UTC-7, John Larkin
wrote:

Inductive chargers that you just park above? May melt things too at high
power.

way too lossy

I believe this has been discussed here before. It\'s not lossy much at all.
In fact, it has lower losses than attaching through
a cable and connector.

There is still work on hydrogen cars gong on, but Hindenburg comes to
mind.

If there\'s one fuel idea for cars & homes that\'s truly insane, it\'s hydrogen.


Yes, it\'s so much worse than having natural gas or propane in your home or
even gasoline, the stuff that raises your insurance
rates by simply having a garage to put it in, even if you don\'t use it!


What the greens refuse to admit is that fossils are really the only sensible
option for most drivers.

Yes, not many people will admit something that\'s not true, unless they are
being tortured.

What is wrong with you exactly?

Nothing wrong with him,
what\'s wrong is the \"\'all electric\' and let\'s destroy all other means\" jive

We see coal plants closing, perhaps oil refineries closing, nuclear plants
being shutdown...
All out of fear (mongering by greenish looking idiots),

Actually, because all three options end up offering you more expensive energy
than solar cells and wind turbines. You do have to budget for some grid storage
if you want to use them to supply all your energy, but even throwing
the cost of grid storage and the 15% loss of energy involved in sticking the
energy into a battery - you only get back about 85% of what you put in
- it is still a decidedly cheaper option

And AS SOON AS THEY GET ANY COLD FEET THEY RE-OPEN THOSE NUCLEAR AND COAL
PLANTS as we now see in Germany [1] .

The Russian invasion of the Ukraine, and the consequent shutting off of Russian
natural gas shipments is the problem here. Shutting them off is still the
cheapest option, but until you\'ve installed all the solar cells and wind
turbines that you are going to need, you\'ve got to rely on the old stuff.

So what we need is DIVERSITY so emergency services can works after the solar
storm takes out all \'lectric wiring
and we need to keep hand on experience with all those technologies so we can
actually bring those online in a flash.
Big comet, volcanos, flooding, wars, probability 100% in the coming years.

But
solar cells and wind turbines are much more dispersed than coal and nuclear
plants. If you\'d got solar cells on your roof and a Tesla power wall inside
your house, you can get by without any grid at all.
Click to expand...

Well, I have now about 500 W peak solar.
And a big 250 Ah lifepo4 battery pack, chargers, and a pure sinewave converter to 230 V 50 Hz
So most will work for things like cooking for example, lights, TV perhaps
but not in winter.
Windmills are fine but not practical to put one next to - or on the house here.
People feed solar back into the main grid, there was some to do on TV about it here,
1 kWh costs 65 cents now and they pay people 16 cents for a kWh fed back into the grid.
grid ... greed, etc
Am not going to feed anything back in this situation.


[1] Here I did read a warning from a nuclear power plant company that those
plants are not designed to just go on
and off randomly... So ...

SO COOL IT A BIT WITH YOUR \'TRICKETY DRIVE

Jan needs to cool it with his enthusiasm for antiquated power sources. He may
have grown up with them, but they are now an expensive extravagance.
Click to expand...

Not really, nuclear can be relatively cheap: France run 75 % of their \'trickety on nuclear.
Allows them to make their own nukes too.. advantage with US threatening to destroy Europe
out of fear for competition.


I was even considering buying a gasoline generator to have \'trickety here
if things keep going this way
as petrol is getting cheaper again..

It\'s not going to keep on getting cheaper - quite the reverse.
Click to expand...

Think about it, if that \'trickety driving goes mainstream then a huge amount of unused oil will
cause the price of that stuff to drop, and \'trickety will get ever more expensive,
Anyways the wiring in some places here where I live is already maxed out so much that new companies cannot even get a
power connection,..
So infrastructure.... cost


400 dollars buys you a very good one that can power washer etc..

And you can put that generator in the back of your \'lectric thing if needed.

And
if you\'ve got the money to buy the gasoline, and there\'s still somebody
in reach who can sell it to you.
Click to expand...

Easy to store enough in some jerrycans to get past the next outage,
jerrycans are a lot cheaper than batteries.
 
On a sunny day (Fri, 9 Sep 2022 00:21:05 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky
<gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
<e413a349-c9da-4632-b3a4-47c2d0d2a969n@googlegroups.com>:

I was even considering buying a gasoline generator to have \'trickety here
if things keep going this way
as petrol is getting cheaper again..
400 dollars buys you a very good one that can power washer etc..

And you can put that generator in the back of your \'lectric thing if needed.

You
are a strange bird. You babble a lot about \"fear\" and tell people what
to do. But you can\'t discuss any of the facts.

What little to do mention, you distort. Germany is looking for energy as a
result of the war in eastern Europe. Perhaps you\'ve heard of it.

Not sure why I respond to you. You won\'t discuss the facts rationally. You
much prefer to put spin on everything and let it fly away.

Bottom line is, BEVs are being made in exponentially increasing numbers. Every
car they can make is bought up with a months long wait list. In 10 years,
nearly all cars sold will be BEV, not by mandate, but by choice, as people
understand how well BEVs work for personal transportation.
Click to expand...

Well with WW3 in 2024,
in 10 years from now there will be cooking on wood for the survivors.
If any animals survive you maybe horse-riding or on a donkey !!


There\'s a number of loud mouths around who denounce BEVs based on where they
were yesterday without seeing where they are today and will be tomorrow.
But these people can be safely ignored.

In 10 years there won\'t be much in the way of ICE made. In 20 years, there
won\'t be much in the way of ICE driven. Gas stations will largely be a thing
of the past. If you have an ICE, you will need to fill up at airports and
the prices will be sky high (pun intended).
Click to expand...

Due to climate change most of Affrica wil have moved to N America
and black warlords will rule that place,
You will need bow and arrow to hunt for your next meal or eat insects.
..

These are facts.
!!
Click to expand...

Days of future past
History, Roman empire, dark ages, religious procecution and wars,

Future of humanity looks dark now we cannot go to Mars as ELon is busy
twittering and NASA cannot even fix hydrogen leaks...
All hope is now on China, and Mars will be a RED planet with a commie government.

All hope is now on you to prevent it!!!

;-)
?
:)
!
 
On Friday, September 9, 2022 at 7:09:16 PM UTC+10, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Fri, 9 Sep 2022 00:59:48 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Anthony
William Sloman <bill....@ieee.org> wrote in
14d0f04e-b79d-44aa...@googlegroups.com>:
On Friday, September 9, 2022 at 4:40:23 PM UTC+10, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Thu, 8 Sep 2022 21:33:32 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in <b06b021c-d686-49f9...@googlegroups.com>:
On Thursday, September 8, 2022 at 7:42:12 PM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
On Friday, 2 September 2022 at 05:46:19 UTC+1, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Thu, 1 Sep 2022 16:14:11 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in <da72c08f-1d06-46e1...@googlegroups.com>:
On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:28:12 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Thu, 1 Sep 2022 04:24:43 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in <e0350540-99d8-4ebc...@googlegroups.com>:
On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 2:09:29 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 10:51:03 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
Click to expand...

<snip>

We see coal plants closing, perhaps oil refineries closing, nuclear plants
being shutdown...
All out of fear (mongering by greenish looking idiots),

Actually, because all three options end up offering you more expensive energy
than solar cells and wind turbines. You do have to budget for some grid storage
if you want to use them to supply all your energy, but even throwing
the cost of grid storage and the 15% loss of energy involved in sticking the
energy into a battery - you only get back about 85% of what you put in
- it is still a decidedly cheaper option .

And AS SOON AS THEY GET ANY COLD FEET THEY RE-OPEN THOSE NUCLEAR AND COAL PLANTS as we now see in Germany [1] .

The Russian invasion of the Ukraine, and the consequent shutting off of Russian
natural gas shipments is the problem here. Shutting them off is still the
cheapest option, but until you\'ve installed all the solar cells and wind
turbines that you are going to need, you\'ve got to rely on the old stuff..

So what we need is DIVERSITY so emergency services can works after the solar storm takes out all \'lectric wiring and we need to keep hand on experience with all those technologies so we can actually bring those online in a flash.

Big comet, volcanos, flooding, wars, probability 100% in the coming years.

But solar cells and wind turbines are much more dispersed than coal and nuclear
plants. If you\'d got solar cells on your roof and a Tesla power wall inside
your house, you can get by without any grid at all.

Well, I have now about 500 W peak solar.
And a big 250 Ah lifepo4 battery pack, chargers, and a pure sinewave converter to 230 V 50 Hz
So most will work for things like cooking for example, lights, TV perhaps but not in winter.

Windmills are fine but not practical to put one next to - or on the house here.
People feed solar back into the main grid, there was some to do on TV about it here,
Click to expand...

The main grid hates it, at the moment, because the existing wasn\'t designed for that job. Upgrading the main grid to cope with a lot of roof-top solar is going to take time and money, and - in the short term - it\'s cheaper to discourage it.

1 kWh costs 65 cents now and they pay people 16 cents for a kWh fed back into the grid.
grid ... greed, etc Am not going to feed anything back in this situation.
Click to expand...

Half the price I have to pay for my electricity cover the cost of maintaining the grid. If you feed electricity back into the grid you are exploiting the grid exactly the same way, but expecting to get paid for it. It\'s not surprising that the only offer you 16 cents per kW.hr.

They may sell it to somebody else for 65 cents, but 32 cents cover the cost of maintaining the grid, so they are giving you half of what they clear.

[1] Here I did read a warning from a nuclear power plant company that those plants are not designed to just go on and off randomly... So ...

SO COOL IT A BIT WITH YOUR \'TRICKETY DRIVE

Jan needs to cool it with his enthusiasm for antiquated power sources. He may
have grown up with them, but they are now an expensive extravagance.

Not really, nuclear can be relatively cheap: France run 75 % of their \'trickety on nuclear.
Allows them to make their own nukes too.. advantage with US threatening to destroy Europe
out of fear for competition.
Click to expand...

It\'s still expensive electricity, and nuclear plant output can\'t be turned up or down all that far.

I was even considering buying a gasoline generator to have \'trickety here if things keep going this way as petrol is getting cheaper again..

It\'s not going to keep on getting cheaper - quite the reverse.

Think about it, if that \'trickety driving goes mainstream then a huge amount of unused oil will cause the price of that stuff to drop, and \'trickety will get ever more expensive,
Click to expand...

Sadly, the oil has to stay unused.

> Anyways the wiring in some places here where I live is already maxed out so much that new companies cannot even get a power connection,..

I read about that in the Volkskrant when I was in the Netherlands in June. They did report it as the grid planners being incompetent about building the new transmission capacity that they knew they were going to need.

> So infrastructure.... cost

Geert Wilders probably managed to get it screwed up to get himself something to agitate about.

400 dollars buys you a very good one that can power washer etc..

And you can put that generator in the back of your \'lectric thing if needed.

And if you\'ve got the money to buy the gasoline, and there\'s still somebody in reach who can sell it to you.
Easy to store enough in some jerrycans to get past the next outage, jerrycans are a lot cheaper than batteries.
Click to expand...

But you still have to fill them.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
On Saturday, September 3, 2022 at 4:15:31 PM UTC-7, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
....
> With modern EVs the active devices IIGBT typically) in the motor driver were first available with breakdown voltages of the order of 1000V and so were only good for system voltage about half of that - 400V tended to be used.. With SIC that has increased so 800V (that can go up to ~950V when fully charged) are practical.

If that\'s the case, we should go with 1200V. These IGBTs are amazing with 1200V 40A 500W (huge heat sink) in TO-257.

https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/product/power/igbt/igbt-discretes/ikq40n120ch3/
 
On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 7:26:43 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
mandag den 5. september 2022 kl. 23.20.18 UTC+2 skrev upsid...@downunder.com:
On Sun, 04 Sep 2022 07:32:01 -0700, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com
wrote:
High voltage needs thick insulation on the wire, and skinny wire
windings lose window area to insulation more than fat wires. And
insulation doesn\'t conduct heat as well as copper. Triple whammy.
400 Vdc is sufficient to drive a 120/208 V three phase motor with a
sine wave. 800 Vdc is sufficient for 230/400V motors. The insulation
thickness is not an issue for normal 230/400 V motors in kW size
motors.

The preference for 800 Vdc battery voltage is in the inverter. 1200 V
semiconductors are cheaply available and they should survive in a well
designed 800 Vdc system.

Using a higher voltage will reduce the current. The cost of a
transistor is usually proportional to the chip area which depends on
the current rating. Reducing the current (by using higher voltage)
requires smaller chips and may reduce total cost, if the higher
voltage doesn\'t significantly increase costs. Now that 1200 V devices
are cheaply available, why not go for 800 Vdc ?.

Going for 1500 Vdc would require 2 kV devices, which today is
expensive.
FIA Formula E all use a nominal 750V battery, so ~525V to ~880V

350kW rear wheel drive, 600kW four wheel regen
Click to expand...

That would be hard on the battery. I wonder how good the warranty is. ;)

--

Rick C.

--+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
On Wednesday, September 7, 2022 at 3:27:38 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 7:26:43 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
mandag den 5. september 2022 kl. 23.20.18 UTC+2 skrev upsid...@downunder.com:
On Sun, 04 Sep 2022 07:32:01 -0700, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com
wrote:
High voltage needs thick insulation on the wire, and skinny wire
windings lose window area to insulation more than fat wires. And
insulation doesn\'t conduct heat as well as copper. Triple whammy.
400 Vdc is sufficient to drive a 120/208 V three phase motor with a
sine wave. 800 Vdc is sufficient for 230/400V motors. The insulation
thickness is not an issue for normal 230/400 V motors in kW size
motors.

The preference for 800 Vdc battery voltage is in the inverter. 1200 V
semiconductors are cheaply available and they should survive in a well
designed 800 Vdc system.

Using a higher voltage will reduce the current. The cost of a
transistor is usually proportional to the chip area which depends on
the current rating. Reducing the current (by using higher voltage)
requires smaller chips and may reduce total cost, if the higher
voltage doesn\'t significantly increase costs. Now that 1200 V devices
are cheaply available, why not go for 800 Vdc ?.

Going for 1500 Vdc would require 2 kV devices, which today is
expensive.
FIA Formula E all use a nominal 750V battery, so ~525V to ~880V

350kW rear wheel drive, 600kW four wheel regen
That would be hard on the battery. I wonder how good the warranty is. ;)
Click to expand...

Depends on what the actual current is. My 80 kW motor typically draw around 70A (28kW) on local driving. Anyone got data on other EVs?
 
On Sunday, September 4, 2022 at 8:45:52 AM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:
On Saturday, September 3, 2022 at 4:15:31 PM UTC-7, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
...
With modern EVs the active devices IIGBT typically) in the motor driver were first available with breakdown voltages of the order of 1000V and so were only good for system voltage about half of that - 400V tended to be used.
Click to expand...

I didn\'t read this carefully. But why half system voltage?

With SIC that has increased so 800V (that can go up to ~950V when fully charged) are practical.
If that\'s the case, we should go with 1200V. These IGBTs are amazing with 1200V 40A 500W (huge heat sink) in TO-257.

https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/product/power/igbt/igbt-discretes/ikq40n120ch3/
Click to expand...

1600V 30A IGBT:
https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/product/power/igbt/igbt-discretes/ihw30n160r5/
 
onsdag den 7. september 2022 kl. 15.48.45 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
On Wednesday, September 7, 2022 at 3:27:38 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 7:26:43 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
mandag den 5. september 2022 kl. 23.20.18 UTC+2 skrev upsid...@downunder.com:
On Sun, 04 Sep 2022 07:32:01 -0700, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com
wrote:
High voltage needs thick insulation on the wire, and skinny wire
windings lose window area to insulation more than fat wires. And
insulation doesn\'t conduct heat as well as copper. Triple whammy.
400 Vdc is sufficient to drive a 120/208 V three phase motor with a
sine wave. 800 Vdc is sufficient for 230/400V motors. The insulation
thickness is not an issue for normal 230/400 V motors in kW size
motors.

The preference for 800 Vdc battery voltage is in the inverter. 1200 V
semiconductors are cheaply available and they should survive in a well
designed 800 Vdc system.

Using a higher voltage will reduce the current. The cost of a
transistor is usually proportional to the chip area which depends on
the current rating. Reducing the current (by using higher voltage)
requires smaller chips and may reduce total cost, if the higher
voltage doesn\'t significantly increase costs. Now that 1200 V devices
are cheaply available, why not go for 800 Vdc ?.

Going for 1500 Vdc would require 2 kV devices, which today is
expensive.
FIA Formula E all use a nominal 750V battery, so ~525V to ~880V

350kW rear wheel drive, 600kW four wheel regen
That would be hard on the battery. I wonder how good the warranty is. ;)
Depends on what the actual current is. My 80 kW motor typically draw around 70A (28kW) on local driving. Anyone got data on other EVs?
Click to expand...

Formula E is racing, there\'s a 52kWh net energy allowance for a 45 minute race and afair they claim regen adds about 40%
 
On Wednesday, September 7, 2022 at 8:07:51 AM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
onsdag den 7. september 2022 kl. 15.48.45 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
On Wednesday, September 7, 2022 at 3:27:38 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 7:26:43 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
mandag den 5. september 2022 kl. 23.20.18 UTC+2 skrev upsid...@downunder.com:
On Sun, 04 Sep 2022 07:32:01 -0700, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com
wrote:
High voltage needs thick insulation on the wire, and skinny wire
windings lose window area to insulation more than fat wires. And
insulation doesn\'t conduct heat as well as copper. Triple whammy.
400 Vdc is sufficient to drive a 120/208 V three phase motor with a
sine wave. 800 Vdc is sufficient for 230/400V motors. The insulation
thickness is not an issue for normal 230/400 V motors in kW size
motors.

The preference for 800 Vdc battery voltage is in the inverter. 1200 V
semiconductors are cheaply available and they should survive in a well
designed 800 Vdc system.

Using a higher voltage will reduce the current. The cost of a
transistor is usually proportional to the chip area which depends on
the current rating. Reducing the current (by using higher voltage)
requires smaller chips and may reduce total cost, if the higher
voltage doesn\'t significantly increase costs. Now that 1200 V devices
are cheaply available, why not go for 800 Vdc ?.

Going for 1500 Vdc would require 2 kV devices, which today is
expensive.
FIA Formula E all use a nominal 750V battery, so ~525V to ~880V

350kW rear wheel drive, 600kW four wheel regen
That would be hard on the battery. I wonder how good the warranty is. ;)
Depends on what the actual current is. My 80 kW motor typically draw around 70A (28kW) on local driving. Anyone got data on other EVs?
Formula E is racing, there\'s a 52kWh net energy allowance for a 45 minute race and afair they claim regen adds about 40%
Click to expand...
What\'s the typical power/current draws? 52kWh/0.75 = 70 kW average?
 
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